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Author Topic: TMD V: The Final Chapter (?)  (Read 12096 times)

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xraffle

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Re: TMD V: The Final Chapter (?)
« Reply #25 on: May 20, 2009, 08:44:01 AM »
Yup, I hear that buzzer too, WIO. That means it's time for us to post our verdicts. I'll go first.

Before I announce my verdict, I will like to say that I, personally, don’t think the stooges would’ve been where they are today if it hadn’t been for Curly. While Shemp was a funny stooge in his own, unique way, there was something Curly had that made him stand out. It probably was due to the amount of energy he had on screen, his high-pitched voice, his nyuks and woo’s, and his weight.

Of course, as a judge, I can’t just vote for someone solely because I agree with him. I need to vote for the participant that I believe had the best argument. Both S&C and Giff failed to effectively get their point across in their arguments, mainly because they were just stating opinions without backing anything up. This is where I needed the rebuttals to help me come to a decision.

S&C really strengthened his argument a lot in his rebuttal by using examples to back up his argument (such as the classic bits in Fuelin Around, Hula-La-La, etc). Unfortunately, Giff not posting a rebuttal weakened his argument. He did use “Soup to Nuts” as an example, but S&C definitely had a good point when he said that the stooges were still able become memorable in spite of “Woman Haters” being such a weak, forgettable short. Giff didn’t exactly have to wipe Curly out of the picture in order to prove his point, as S&C stated. He could’ve used examples of both Shemp and Curly shorts in order to show us exactly how Curly was significantly better than Shemp. Probably the best way would be to compare the remakes like "A Plumbing We Will Go" and "Vagabond Loafers."

I asked each participant a question to help make my decision. S&C did an excellent job answering his question. Again, he used examples (such as Curly’s performance in Micro-Phonies and Three Little Pirates) to get his point across. Giff’s answer was good, but I was expecting more. I really needed to know exactly what Curly accomplished that Shemp didn't that made him become so memorable.

So, my vote goes to STOOGED AND CONFUSED. While his side may not be the side I agree with, he had the best argument. In fact, I think I may start to agree with his side now as he brought up some really good, valid points in his argument.

Good job, both of you. This topic is very hard to debate on since the only sure fire way of knowing whether the stooges would still be remembered is to go back in time and tell Shemp not to quit. So, I commend you both for the magnificent effort you put into this debate.

Offline WhyIOughta

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Re: TMD V: The Final Chapter (?)
« Reply #26 on: May 20, 2009, 11:29:19 AM »
Omigawd, this has been so tough......I'm sure glad that "xraffle" posted his vote before I attempted to do same, simply because I'm having the same basic problem that HE was having -- Keeping my personal feelings out of it, and voting the way the voting SHOULD go -- Pertaining to the arguments and rebuttals as they wqere presented.  OK, here goes........

"Stooged And Confused" made an EXCELLENT point in his rebuttal in regards to the argument as to whether the original stooges would be "remembered" (Another incredibly adept choice of words by Shemps#1, who always keeps what I call "a sharpened lack of clarity" when he carefully words his debate topics) -- When Curly had to leave the act, Shemp picked the ball back up, and kept the machine running as the finely-tuned comedy act that they were.  I couldn't agree more, and i'll also take this one step farther, in the sense that, since my joining this fan board, even I have come to appreciate Shemp Howard's overall body of work even more than I have in the past.  Shemp was the total pro, and easily got the job done.

Then comes "Giff Me Dat Fill-Em."  Fill-em's answer to my question to him was INCREDIBLE, when it touched on what he called "Curly's Legacy."  To quote Fill-em, "   It was partly due to the high level of popularity Curly was responsible for that Shemp’s return to the team was as seamless as it was, as far as the public may have viewed the transition. Had he never left, and as such there would be no wonderful Curly-isms and the like, it would have become what we see on the screen now, with, as I mentioned before, Moe, Larry and Shemp as a very good comedy team that worked well together. But there are contemporaries of Moe, Larry and Shemp with those same credentials - and being good together or cohesive may not be enough to lodge the MLS team firmly in the public’s memory. Curly was the rocket ship that thrust the Stooges into high memorableness, and the Stooges with Shemp is the locomotive that does its job day after day, in a reliable and dependable pattern.

Bingo.

I liken this to the New England Patriots vs. the rest of the current NFL.  Sure, people always REMEMBER the other 31 franchises, but when the Patriots had all their people in the right places, players, coaching staff, management, they made things HAPPEN.  3 rings, and a legacy that will be remembered by all fans of the NFL for a LOOOONG time.  I love the Shemp shorts, and they were damned good, both pre-and-post Curly, but Jerome 'Curly' Howard was Brady, Belichick, Moss and the rest of the Pats' hierarchy, all rolled into one.  The timing of the change, and the following influx of the writers' talents, coupled with this dynamo of film comedy that WAS Curly Howard, thrusted The Three Stooges into comedic film history.  I agree, Fill-em -- Curly was the straw that stirred the drink.  His appearance and performance helped make history, elevating the level to a point that the Shemp Howard Stooges may not have ever reached.  When I sat down and asked myself, "could the Shemp-Moe-Larry Stooges have garnered the same historical support" that catapulted them into the same film-making stratosphere, honestly, I gotta say 'no.'

My vote goes to Giff-Me-Dat-Fill-Em.
 

Everybody does 'remember' all 32 NFL teams, and that they do exist, but there's remembering, and then, there's REMEMBERING.  The Pats will always be remembered for their run, and so will the Stooges, thanks to the Tom Brady of comedy, Jerome 'Curly' Howard.

S&C, I know this is gonna sound hollow, but I do mean it.  You didn't lose.  Fill-em won.  Excellent job, both of you.  Thanks to all those who let me participate.....

Offline Dunrobin

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Re: TMD V: The Final Chapter (?)
« Reply #27 on: May 20, 2009, 12:48:09 PM »
I think that Stooge and Confused made a decent argument and almost had me convinced, but (as WIO already mentioned) Giff's point about Curly's role in their comeback won me over.  I absolutely love the Shemp shorts, but when I was a kid in the early 60's it was the Curly episodes that thrilled my friends and me.  We didn't really appreciate Shemp nearly as much as Curly, and I think it was because Curly always came across as just a big kid himself.  We could relate to him, and I think that is probably the biggest reason why the Stooges are still so well known today. 

My vote goes to Giff.

xraffle

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Re: TMD V: The Final Chapter (?)
« Reply #28 on: May 20, 2009, 03:18:47 PM »
That's funny. Whenever I'm a judge and cast a vote, the other fellow judges vote the other way. I must be evaluating the participants wrong. ;D

Offline metaldams

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Re: TMD V: The Final Chapter (?)
« Reply #29 on: May 20, 2009, 10:03:48 PM »
....and my vote goes to..........announced after tomorrow night's Red Sox game.  Bwa ha ha haaaaaaa, the suspense shall kill thee, knuckleheads!  I'll read over both arguments well during my lunch break tomorrow.

xraffle

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Re: TMD V: The Final Chapter (?)
« Reply #30 on: May 20, 2009, 10:05:26 PM »
Bwa ha ha haaaaaaa, the suspense shall kill thee, knuckleheads! 

Well if my ass had voted the right way, them knuckleheads wouldn't be in this mess. [pie]

Offline metaldams

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Re: TMD V: The Final Chapter (?)
« Reply #31 on: May 21, 2009, 09:38:24 PM »
I don't think this debate was handled too well.  The question asked if The Three Stooges would still be remembered today if Shemp never left the act.  We should've have gotten more thoughts on Curly and Shemps' place in modern popular culture, not what their peers thought (Laurel Awards, Ed Bernds quotes), or artistic statements (Jules White making special scenes for Curly).  What does any of this have to do with how Joe Burger King remembers the boys today?  Bobby Clark was considered hysterical by his peers and nobody today remembers Clark and McCullough shorts.  Not everything of good quality or popularity back in the day is necessarily remembered today.

Shemp is funny, I love the guy.  That said, he has a cult following among us Stooge board people (the minority) but is not as universally loved the way Curly is.  There's nothing to lead me to believe Shemp the Stooge, without Curly the Stooge preceeding him in film, would be remembered on his own by anyone except those of us who get excited over Charley Chase DVDs.

I give my vote to GIFF for two reasons.  1.) He picked the right side.  2.) He was right in saying Curly is the draw and main attraction and Shemp would have Internet sites and not much more.  That said, this debate called for more pop culture references.

xraffle

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Re: TMD V: The Final Chapter (?)
« Reply #32 on: May 21, 2009, 09:58:24 PM »
Third time's a charm, Giff! Congrats! (And this coming from the man who voted against you :-[)

Seriously though, I really mean it. Enjoy the Three Stooges Journal subscription. My voting against someone is nothing personal. It was just an impartial vote. Congrats, again! [clap]

Offline shemps#1

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Re: TMD V: The Final Chapter (?)
« Reply #33 on: May 21, 2009, 10:27:05 PM »
Without further adieu, Giff, you sir are FINALLY a Master Debater!

It is with something of heavy heart that I am announcing this as the conclusion of the Master Debates. I would like to thank everyone who made this possible, Dunrobin, the participants and the judges that we have had through these five months.
"Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day; teach a man to fish and he will eat for a lifetime; give a man religion and he will die praying for a fish." - Unknown

xraffle

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Re: TMD V: The Final Chapter (?)
« Reply #34 on: May 23, 2009, 07:58:00 PM »
I have to say, one of the main reasons I voted for S&C was because he provided some great examples and that's what convinced me to vote for him. He had me convinced when he mentioned Shemp doing that short Maharaja bit he jumbled off in "Studio Stoops." When I was a kid, that bit had me laughing hysterically. The way Shemp did that bit was priceless!

Offline Giff me dat fill-em!

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Re: TMD V: The Final Chapter (?)
« Reply #35 on: May 23, 2009, 08:44:10 PM »
I have to say, one of the main reasons I voted for S&C was because he provided some great examples and that's what convinced me to vote for him. He had me convinced when he mentioned Shemp doing that short Maharaja bit he jumbled off in "Studio Stoops." When I was a kid, that bit had me laughing hysterically. The way Shemp did that bit was priceless!

That's why I thought I would lose. I had no explicit examples to call up, since "If Shemp never left" never happened.
I don't even know if pop culture references would have helped (as Metaldams suggested). AND, S&C kinda shot down the notion of "We should've have gotten more thoughts on Curly and Shemps' place in modern popular culture" as an attempt to sidestep the main argument, that being "If Shemp never left" then bringing up Curly was a moot point.

A tough battle by all, even the judges were hand wringing this time.
The tacks won't come out! Well, they went in ... maybe they're income tacks.

Offline metaldams

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Re: TMD V: The Final Chapter (?)
« Reply #36 on: May 23, 2009, 09:19:12 PM »
It was a tough debate.  It's very difficult to prove something in a scenario that never happened.

The first debate was great because with Joe Vs. Joe, the body of work and history was there for all to see.  I always thought the validity of the Charley Chase shorts would've been intriguing.  He made six of them, and in my opinion, some are classics and some are turkeys, hence a great debate. 

xraffle

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Re: TMD V: The Final Chapter (?)
« Reply #37 on: May 23, 2009, 09:20:44 PM »
The first debate was great because with Joe Vs. Joe, the body of work and history was there for all to see.  I always thought the validity of the Charley Chase shorts would've been intriguing.  He made six of them, and in my opinion, some are classics and some are turkeys, hence a great debate. 

I agree and it was a shame that it was the only debate I didn't get involved in. It's a shame this was the last debate because this gives me a great idea for a future debate topic. We could've went to a whole new direction and have a debate on who was the better Marx Brother. It's not stooge related, but you got to admit, it's interesting.