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Author Topic: The Master Debates IV: Three Stooges Movie  (Read 18961 times)

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Offline shemps#1

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The Master Debates IV: Three Stooges Movie
« on: April 02, 2009, 04:32:22 PM »
Ladies and Gentlemen, welcome to the fourth Master Debates. Thanks to everyone who submitted. We may have our own rivalry in the making.

Topic
As Three Stooges fans should we support or boycott the planned Farrelly Bros. Three Stooges movie?

Participants
Taking the position that the movie should be supported: TMD II Winner xraffle
Taking the position that the movie should be boycotted: newcomer Why I Oughta

Judges
metaldams, winner of TMD I and TMD III
Justin T
Dunrobin
stooged and confused

Format
The participants have until April 10 to write their arguments. In the interest of fairness I will ask the participants to send their finished arguments to me in a Private Message before posting to this thread. This is so the second participant to finish does not have any advantage from reading the other participant's argument. Once I receive both arguments I will inform the participants that they may post their arguments for the judges to read in this thread.

Once the arguments are posted the participants will then have an opportunity for a rebuttal, or a chance to poke holes in their opponents argument. The rebuttals may be posted immediately to this thread.

Once the rebuttals have been posted and the judges have read and scrutinized everything the judges will be allowed to pose one question (from each judge, not as a group) to each of the participants regarding either their argument or rebuttal.

Once the judges have asked all the questions they needed to and those questions have been answered, the floor will be open to the general public for a period of two days to ask questions of the participants.

Once any and all questions have been answered each judge will cast a vote (in this thread) for who they believe won the debate. If the vote tally is 4-0 or 3-1 a winner will be announced. If the vote tally is 2-2 I will cast the deciding vote.

The winner will receive a one year subscription to the Three Stooges Journal.

Let the debate commence!
"Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day; teach a man to fish and he will eat for a lifetime; give a man religion and he will die praying for a fish." - Unknown

Offline WhyIOughta

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Re: The Master Debates IV: Three Stooges Movie
« Reply #1 on: April 05, 2009, 02:21:33 AM »
Awesome....Look for my PM sometime on Monday or Tuesday... gl2u, X.....

xraffle

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Re: The Master Debates IV: Three Stooges Movie
« Reply #2 on: April 10, 2009, 11:29:13 AM »
Awesome....Look for my PM sometime on Monday or Tuesday... gl2u, X.....

Since it's now Friday, I assume you sent your argument already. I sent mine last week. But I won't post anything yet until Shemps#1 says so. Anyways, good luck to you as well, WhyIOughta!!

Offline shemps#1

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Re: The Master Debates IV: Three Stooges Movie
« Reply #3 on: April 10, 2009, 12:47:47 PM »
I have yet to receive anything from Why I Oughta.
"Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day; teach a man to fish and he will eat for a lifetime; give a man religion and he will die praying for a fish." - Unknown

xraffle

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Re: The Master Debates IV: Three Stooges Movie
« Reply #4 on: April 10, 2009, 01:09:17 PM »
Oh ok. I was so sure that he sent his already because he said Monday or Tuesday. But that’s ok. I don’t mind waiting.

Offline WhyIOughta

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Re: The Master Debates IV: Three Stooges Movie
« Reply #5 on: April 10, 2009, 05:30:02 PM »
My sincerest apologies to all you fellow knuckleheads....got side-tracked with personal situation, but am now putting finishing touches on my drivel, should submit later today.... [3stooges]

Offline shemps#1

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Re: The Master Debates IV: Three Stooges Movie
« Reply #6 on: April 11, 2009, 03:42:48 PM »
The floor is open to the contestants to post their submissions. Once the submissions have been posted the contestants may post their rebuttals.
"Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day; teach a man to fish and he will eat for a lifetime; give a man religion and he will die praying for a fish." - Unknown

xraffle

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Re: The Master Debates IV: Three Stooges Movie
« Reply #7 on: April 11, 2009, 04:35:55 PM »
   Many fans of the stooges are wondering whether or not they should see this new Three Stooges movie. Whether you may think this new movie is a bad idea or not, I say we should support this film. The stooges started over 75 years ago and that’s a long time. Before you know it, the stooges could be long gone and forgotten. This new film is a great way to help the stooges become popular again. Not that the stooges aren’t popular today. They are, but let’s face it, they aren’t as popular as they used to be.
   Here is an example of how this new stooges movie can help the stooges regain the popularity they used to have. Think of the older Batman movies. When the first four Batman movies came out (particularly Batman and Batman Returns), Batman was extremely popular. When I was in grammar school, he was everyone’s favorite superhero. Then, when I got to high school, Batman was fading away and Spider-Man became everyone’s favorite superhero. Now that Batman Begins and The Dark Knight came out, Batman has regained its popularity. This same thing can happen to The Three Stooges. By supporting this new stooges film, we are helping the movie become a box office hit. If it becomes a box office hit, then the stooges will become extremely popular again. Everyone around you will be talking about the stooges. The stooges shorts will even continue airing on TV again. The new chronological sets will even sell better. Heck, for all you Blu-ray fans, you may even see the stooges get released on BD.
   Another example is the TV show, “The Twilight Zone.” A lot of people today still know about that show and like it. After all these years, that show is still well-known and it still has a lot of fans. The main reason why it’s still popular is because of all those remakes they’ve made on it. Even though most people don’t care for the remakes, it helped keep the show well-known.
   It’s really not just the stooges that need a new film, but Abbott & Costello and The Marx Brothers need one too. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve asked the question “Have you ever seen the movie, Duck Soup?” and get this response: “Huh?” Even though this movie is ranked as one of the 100 best movies of all times, many people out there don’t know about it. That’s because the movie is over 75 years old and so are the stooges. People need to be reminded of the talent the stooges had. This new movie will do just that.
   A lot of us here probably feel that the movie will be stupid. But I say, give the movie a chance. Us stooge fans need to help the stooges regain their popularity. The only people I know that watch the stooges are older people. I know very few people my age or younger that watch the stooges. The reason for that is that younger people today don’t know the stooges at all and how funny they are. This new film will help gain more stooge fans and that’s why I say that we should all support this film and see it. Maybe you’ll enjoy it. You never know.

Offline WhyIOughta

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Re: The Master Debates IV: Three Stooges Movie
« Reply #8 on: April 12, 2009, 01:19:05 AM »
First of all, I want to thank the creators of this website.  Not only for their love for the Three Stooges, but also for all of the various submissions, suggestions, interesting commentary, and thoughtful forums, like this debate forum.  This forum was the reason I joined, and I’m NOT a big “joiner.”  Hats off to all of you that make this whole experience possible.  Now, on with the show…..

Yet another great debate topic, one that I loved, the minute that I saw it. 

“As Three Stooges fans should we support or boycott the planned Farrelly Bros. Three Stooges movie?”  My answer?  Let me make this as clear as possible — “Absolutely, positively, 100% BOYCOTT.”  I have several reasons for this stance, one that I might wager a thought to believe there are quite a few of the silent majority that participate on this website may agree with.

Let’s start off with my immediate response….”WHY would we NEED this?”  Please put me down for the type of die-hard, thoughtful 3-S fan that treasures EVERY short film, every snippet of TV work, everything that the Three Stooges and their creative teams thought to put on celluloid, video tape, or photo paper.  I treasure it ALL.  Their work, in my humble opinion, holds up to this day as the patriarch of slapstick comedy and snappy dialogue.  Now, along comes yet another Hollywood film-making team, dollar signs in their eyes, and thinking that making a feature-length film involving the Three Stooges and using 21st-Century Hollywood actors is a good idea.  Memo to the Hollywood-types that LOVE to take other’s work, put it into the film grinders, and make it their own — FORGET IT. 

Yes, I’ve seen the suggestions of the three “stars” that might sign on to actually MAKE this incredibly misguided film.  Let’s start with the man that MADE the Three Stooges function like they did — Moe Howard.  The Farrelly’s choice to play him would be none other than (get this) BENICIO DEL TORO??  (Laugh)  Moe Howard was the guiding force behind the entire 3-S project.  His timing was key, his accent necessary to pull off what was needed in the time frame that the pictures were made from the 1930’s on.  His staccato-style was LEGEND,  and is never to be duplicated again.  For anyone else to even ATTEMPT to re-create Moe Howard’s style on film is a mistake, and in Del Toro’s case, a CRIME.  BAD IDEA.  NO Three Stooges fan in his right mind would buy this.  I’d CRINGE, every time he’d trot onto the screen and participate, and that’s not MY idea of a “tribute.”  He can’t pull it off, plain and simple.  You’d need a “Milli-Vanilli” voice-over, replacing every word that comes out of his mouth, with some other actors’ voice.  You have GOT to be kidding me.  (BUZZZZ)  WROOONG……….

Next, we have Sean Penn, a fine actor, being initially mentioned as playing Larry Fine, and JIM CARREY, of all people, suggested to re-create the comic masterpiece that was Curly Howard…….Now, Penn’s a fine actor, but his presence would never make this film function, because Larry Fine was the fall guy, the set-up guy, the target of most of Moe’s jabs.  He’d be wasted.  But, folks, let’s get to Jim Carrey as Curly.  (Laugh)  CURLY HOWARD, of all people.  In the NBA, they always tell you about prospects, “The guy is tall, and you can’t teach TALL.”  And make no mistake about it, Carrey’s TALL — Six-Feet-one and a half, and about 190 pounds.  Fairly average for a man of the 21st-century, but, unfortunately, he’d be PLAYING a character that was a full EIGHT INCHES SHORTER.  (Curly was 5-5.)  Sean Penn’s 5-9, and Benicio Del Toro comes in the tallest, at 6-2.  I don’t care HOW much makeup, body suits and high heels they put on these actors, they won’t pull this off.   It’s going to be a disaster, plain and simple.  These three actors have NO CHANCE of replicating the magic of the Stooges, not to MENTION the look of the men, or their ability to play off of each other.   

As motion picture history will tell you, the Three Stooges are still icons of that bygone era, the Golden Age of film-making.  Sadly, if the Farrellys are playing to their still-intact audience of comedy-loving Three Stooges fans, they’ve picked the wrong fan base to try to milk their money out of.  The Three Stooges fan base is VERY particular, and has a wealth of short films, feature films, and individual efforts by all of the past 3-S members to keep them laughing for all eternity.  What they DON’T need is some half-baked Hollywood studio money-grab, an effort that the Farrellys will tell you is a “tribute to the fine work of the Stooges.”  If THAT’S the case, my money-grabbing brothers, MAKE A DOCUMENTARY.  The LAST thing we as 3-S fans and lovers need is another thrown-together biopic that thinks it’s paying TRIBUTE to one of the greatest comedy teams of all time, written by a filmmaking team that had produced such thought-provoking efforts like “Shallow Hal” and “Me, Myself and Irene,” while using a team of actors that are probably fulfilling some childhood dream of playing their comedic heroes.  PUH=LEEEASE.  Spare me. 

At this point, it’s important to say one thing — I have nothing against the Farrellys, Penn, Carrey, or Del Toro — It’s not that they’re making this film  — It’s the fact that ANYONE would attempt to make this film.  No matter WHO you use, it’s just not right.  It’s unnecessary, and a film that CAN’T be made correctly.  The Stooges’ LOOK and TIMING are what MADE them, and it just can’t be re-produced, no matter HOW much you try.

So, with all this having been said, It’s time for the Three Stooges fan-base to rise up, and say “NO” to this ill-timed Hollywood money-grabbing circle-jerk.  Time to tell the powers that be in Hollywood to LEAVE THINGS like THE THREE STOOGES ALONE.  The genius and expertise of the Stooges is already ON film, gentlemen, made by the men themselves, some 60-70 years ago.  All you’re trying to do is make a few bucks off of their memories, and the memories of their fan base.  We don’t need this unnecessary work, and we, as the 3-S fan base will NOT support it.  The boycott is the thing, and I’ll be right there, doing just that — BOYCOTTING this film.

Offline WhyIOughta

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Re: The Master Debates IV: Three Stooges Movie
« Reply #9 on: April 12, 2009, 02:32:24 AM »
Rebuttal to xraffle’s topic discussion……

Well, as a fellow “Stooge-a-holic,” I can certainly appreciate xraffle’s love for the Three Stooges, and how he might attempt to justify supporting what might turn into the “Hindenburg” of motion picture ideas because of that devotion, but, unfortunately, the arguments don’t hold up to the necessary scrutiny.  (By the way, just what IS another word for scrutiny?)

Xraffle’s main thrust of his argument is the evidence of successful resurrection of motion picture characters and popular television shows of the past via the silver screen, their renaissances (as X sees it) due to the re-introduction of the characters and themes of the past with new, vibrant writing and storylines that were and are faithful to the characters and themes themselves.  Only one MAJOR problem with this theory.

The comparisons aren’t the same.

You can’t compare the re-introduction of the Batman character to the possible re-creation of the 3 Stooges on film for one simple reason — Batman is a faceless character that is more of an ideal than a person, a character that stands for something, but, as the motion picture industry has proven time and time again, you can plug ANYONE into the Bat-Suit and get away with it.  (Keaton, Kilmer, Clooney, Bale….Have I forgotten anyone?)  It doesn’t matter WHO you put out there as Batman — The films are story-driven, and the man in the cape is just running the Bat-Playbook. But, with the THREE STOOGES, their LOOK, their TIMING, their SOUND, their ability to make people laugh…..You just CAN’T put Clooney, Kilmer and Bale out there on the screen and make them re-create the Stooges and their magic any more than using Penn, Del Toro and Carrey.  Whereas the writing of the latest installments of the Batman saga are fantastically produced, directed and written AND can withstand any test of time, you could have Spielberg directing Orson Welles, Michael Douglas and Jack Nicholson as the Stooges, and the flop-er-roo would be heard around the world.  Reason?  They just aren’t the STOOGES.  NO ONE is.  Can’t be done right.  CAN be DONE, but CAN NOT BE DONE RIGHT, and I know it, YOU know it, and X knows it.

And, as far as the Twilight Zone vignettes that have also been turned into some fantastic work, again, The Twilight Zone isn’t re-creating specific PEOPLE.  It’s going by the same theory at the Bat-Films — Great writing, and loyalty to the style of story that MADE the Twilight Zone so great.  You could use Shatner as the guy in the airplane checkin’ out the abominable snowman out on the airplane wing in the TV show from the ‘60’s, and successfully use John Lithgow as the NEW Shatner character in the motion picture re-make of that great piece of work.  How?  Because it dowsn’t matter WHAT the main character looks like, moves like, sounds like.  With the Stooges, it ALL matters.

X, you mention Abbott and Costello and The Marx Brothers later on in your synopsis, and suggest that these two comedy team icons might be well to have the right people seek to re-make THEIR stories as well.  You wanna know WHY these two comedy teams haven’t seen the “Silver Screen light of day” as well?  Simple.  IT CAN’T BE DONE RIGHT.  The LOOK is the thing, with those teams, ESPECIALLY the Marx Brothers.  Good luck re-making THAT film.  That’d be an even BIGGER travesty.  Look, I’m not going to re-make “Back To The Future” 25 years later by having Justin Timberlake driving Herbie, the Love Bug.  It’s just not gonna fly.  You need someone that at least LOOKS like Michael J. Fox, and you CERTAINLY need that DeLorean, or ELSE. 

As far as what happens in MY home, my two young boys (12 and 9) have watched the Three Stooges on those gorgeously restored DVD collections, and they thoroughly enjoy them.  That makes me happy as a clam, BUT...I realize that, when they grow up, they may or may NOT continue to gravitate towards those madcap guys from 60-to-70 years ago.  And, you know what?  That’s OK.  Reason?  They may find something else that tickles their fancy, some other form of visual entertainment that suits the times they live in.  BUT…..They’ll always have the ORIGINAL Stooges to fall back on, should they feel the need, the Stooges that made history, and that ARE history.  They certainly wouldn’t be grabbing for that Michael Chiklis biopic, or this horrible Farrelly-movie idea.  They won’t NEED to.  Why?  Simple………

Why settle for some cheap, meaningless imitation, when you can just put on the real thing? 

My sentiments exactly, my young sons, my sentiments, EXACTLY…..

Boycott this film.  You'll feel better for it, in the morning.......










xraffle

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Re: The Master Debates IV: Three Stooges Movie
« Reply #10 on: April 12, 2009, 11:32:21 AM »
Here is my rebuttal:

   Let’s face it, no one can replace the real stooges, not even Sean Penn or Jim Carrey. However, the main reason I say we should support this film is to REMIND people about the stooges. It will help market the stooges better. You rarely hear about the stooges today. I will go back to my Batman example. When “Batman Begins” first came out, Batman started to become well-known again. Two-disc special edition DVDs came out for all 4 of the original Batman movies. Batman: The Animated Series started to air again on TV (after a long hiatus). Batman toys were starting to sell again. Even after “The Dark Knight” came out, all 4 movies got released on Blu-ray too. When this new Three Stooges film comes out, this same thing will happen. The stooges will begin airing on TV again. Three stooges items will be on sale at your local stores. The Three Stooges will become a big hit again.
   Yes, I admit. These actors can never replace the original stooges. No one can, to be honest. But they’re good actors and they will do a good job at imitating them. They can still be funny in their own way. Jim Carrey, even though he’s tall and 190 lbs., is still a great actor. All of my friends and I love watching movies like Dumb and Dumber, The Mask, Liar Liar, etc. because Jim Carrey is hilarious. Sean Penn, Jim Carrey, and Benicio Del Toro are good actors. Like I said, no one can ever replace the original stooges, but you can’t say they will do a bad job at this. They’re funny actors and they will still bring us laughs. They will not be as funny as Moe, Larry, and Curly, but they’ll still do a decent job. I don’t know how many of you saw this, but I remember one episode of MadTV where there was this skit of three people imitating the stooges. While they weren’t as good as the real Moe, Larry and Curly, they were still funny and it was an enjoyable skit to watch.
   You can’t honestly ever say that a new stooge movie should never be made. Like I said in my original argument, the stooges’ shorts are already 75 years old. More and more people don’t know that the stooges even exist. This new movie will give people a wake up call and let them know that The Three Stooges exist. I see your point, WhyIOughta, but your argument is extremely harsh. I don’t consider this new film as “money-grabbing.” This movie is not trying to “make a few bucks off of their memories.” They’re actually trying to remind people of the talent the stooges had. This movie is telling people that the stooges exist and people should start watching them again. Just wait and see. When this new movie comes out, The Three Stooges are going to become a big hit again. I’m not saying this new movie will become a big hit, but the original Three Stooges will.

Offline shemps#1

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Re: The Master Debates IV: Three Stooges Movie
« Reply #11 on: April 12, 2009, 09:22:38 PM »
The floor is now open to questioning from the judges. If a judge wishes to abstain from questioning the contestants please state so.
"Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day; teach a man to fish and he will eat for a lifetime; give a man religion and he will die praying for a fish." - Unknown

stooged and confused

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Re: The Master Debates IV: Three Stooges Movie
« Reply #12 on: April 13, 2009, 01:05:12 AM »
Seeing as many have been vocal about not wanting a "new and updated" Three Stooges movie, XRaffle has the harder job in convincing us that it is a good idea to support it. However, Why I Outta needs to show WHY we should boycott a movie that hasn't had one frame of film shot. Remember the old saying: "You should never assume anything, because when you assume..."

Okay, so here are my points to have our debaters elaborate on.

X, if the movie bombs, there won't be any NEW interest in the old films. But, tell me how you think a modern generation will turn on to 7 decade old films that are in black and white without Judd Apatow style crudeness if the movie does become a hit. After all, the first Pink Panther remake was a hit and I didn't see the younger crowd rush to catch on to the genius of Peter Sellers (and those movies were in color).

You mention that we should support the movie regardless of that fact if it's a "bad idea or not." If it's a bad idea, why should I part with $10 on a bad idea? How could something bad make me want to try it again in an older incarnation when the modern audience has no care about movies, TV and music from the days of yore?

You also mention needing new films of Marx Bros and Abbott and Costello. They made a A&C TV pic years ago and it was awful. Would kids who are growing up on Seth Rogen and Will Ferrell find "who's on first" all that funny?

You also mention that "us Stooges fans need to help regain their popularity". If the movie stinks, how will this help? Please explain.

Why I Outta, now here are my points to you.

What if the movie is good? Granted, it may not be the same thing as the originals, but what if they do a decent job and the movie is entertaining? Should we boycott something that is good? At this point, we have no way of knowing if it will be good or bad. For example, I was a die hard Sean Connery fan as James Bond. I couldn't see anyone else in the part. My mind was made up. Roger Moore and especially Pierce Brosnan did NOTHING to sway me. In fact, I gave up on the franchise after the 2nd Brosnan entry. When Casino Royale came out, I turned my nose up at it. Another Bond? The Cold War, double en tendres and corny dialogue was way out of date for modern times. But then I kept hearing all of these good reviews and how they freshened it up successfully for contemporary times. One night, when I had absolutely nothing to do, I went and rented it. My first Bond movie in quite some time. I was hooked. Daniel Craig made me FORGET all about Connery's Bond. And I enjoyed the follow up. Should I have passed on them because Connery wasn't in them?

Okay, boys...you're up!

xraffle

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Re: The Master Debates IV: Three Stooges Movie
« Reply #13 on: April 13, 2009, 11:07:37 AM »
Quote
X, if the movie bombs, there won't be any NEW interest in the old films. But, tell me how you think a modern generation will turn on to 7 decade old films that are in black and white without Judd Apatow style crudeness if the movie does become a hit. After all, the first Pink Panther remake was a hit and I didn't see the younger crowd rush to catch on to the genius of Peter Sellers (and those movies were in color).

But you don't know if the movie will bomb or not. That's just an assumption. This movie hasn't even started to be filmed yet and already, it's all over the news. When this new movie eventually comes out, there will be poster and advertisements all over the place. Then the original stooges will begin airing on popular TV stations and people will begin watching them. As for your Pink Panther comment, I encounter a lot more people that know about The Pink Panther than people who know about the stooges. So, maybe that remake wasn't such a mistake after all.


Quote
You mention that we should support the movie regardless of that fact if it's a "bad idea or not." If it's a bad idea, why should I part with $10 on a bad idea? How could something bad make me want to try it again in an older incarnation when the modern audience has no care about movies, TV and music from the days of yore?

But we don't know it's a bad idea until we go out and watch it. I'm just saying that we should give the movie a shot. You may like it. If you don't, at least you helped the box office numbers. The more we help the box office numbers, the more people will want to go out and watch this movie. The more people that watch the movie, the more fans the stooges will get.


Quote
You also mention needing new films of Marx Bros and Abbott and Costello. They made a A&C TV pic years ago and it was awful. Would kids who are growing up on Seth Rogen and Will Ferrell find "who's on first" all that funny?

I mentioned that because many of the people I know don't even know that the Marx Bros. and A&C even exists. 'Til this day, it astounds me as to how people don't know movies like "Duck Soup" and "Buck Privates." Two great movies are out there and people don't know they exist. If only people knew about them and watch them, I know they would laugh their heads off.


Quote
You also mention that "us Stooges fans need to help regain their popularity". If the movie stinks, how will this help? Please explain.

Like I said before, you don't know if the movie stinks. Even if it does stink, it's not going to do any harm. The stooges are already starting to fade away and fewer people know about them. I'll give another example: the movie "TMNT." That movie wasn't such a great success, but it helped regain some Ninja Turtles fan. The box sets of the original Trilogy were starting to sell like hotcakes (they ended up being in Amazon's top 100 bestsellers at one point). The movies even aired on TV again and they still do from time to time. My point is, the movie can either help or not. If it doesn't, there's no harm. The movie will not drain away any Three Stooges fans. If it really bombs, then the number of stooges fans will remain as is.

Offline WhyIOughta

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Re: The Master Debates IV: Three Stooges Movie
« Reply #14 on: April 13, 2009, 11:25:31 AM »
Hi there, "stooged and confused."  As I get ready to respond to your question, it dawns on me how lucky I am and we are to have a website that deals with any type of passion, like the old Stooges shorts and films.  We have a website here that, especially in these "debate" cases, invites interaction and/or camaraderie between people that have similar interests.  I love it, and i'm brand new to the scene...Can't wait to interact further with my new 'friends.'  Such a good thing...But, I digress.  Here goes.....

To answer your question, I skip to the last point you make.  Should you pass on the current Bond films, because Connery ain't in 'em?  I'll answer as a fellow Bond fan -- No.  I looked upon the current films as a way to use the 21st-century technology now available to the screenwriters to weave an even better tale, with a VERY good, brooding Bond that IS Daniel Craig.  I LOVE these new Bond films with him.  The Bond franchise needed  a transfusion of new ideas, and, IMHO, they've done a GREAT job in doing just that.  I can't wait for the next one, either.

HOWEVER.........

Again, there is a HUGE difference in taking what I call a faceless character like James Bond and making multiple story-driven films with that "character," and attempting to do the same with historical people like the Three Stooges.  When you take historical figures and attempt to bring them back to life on film, you run a HUGE risk of alienating a fan base that holds you up to a higher standard, one that, in THIS case, should NOT be breached for lack of necessity.  

As the Bond stories go, the trick with "007" is that the MI-6 can and will assign that "007" moniker to another agent, and another.  The ability to change the LOOK of "007" is built-in, easy to sell.  Now, with the Farrellys, they've decided to take a historical comedy figure like Moe Howard (for one example) and replace him with Benicio Del TORO, of all people, and make a film about the Three Stooges.  OK, let's skip ahead in your own scenario...."What if the film's GOOD?"  Well, for our example, let's define "good" as making money, because, as I contend, there is no freakin' WAY in this WORLD that a true lover of the Stooges will find that THIS "film" will be "good" in the sense of the way it looks, the way it portrays the Stooges, and the storyline itself.  (It'll be a disaster, but again, I digress...)  So, OK, the film makes money, and the Farrellys decide to make another one, this time with two new actors playing Stooges, because two of the first three actors wanted more dough, and didn't sign on, or they were too busy, or their dog needed to go to the groomers, whatever.  BOOM, another film comes out, worse than the first in the eyes of the true fans, BUT STILL GOOD, in the eyes of HOLLYWOOD, because it turns a profit.  

Now, WHY does the film turn this profit?  Well, i'll GUARANTEE you it's not because the die-hard lovers of the original Stooges are flocking to see it.  It's just fodder for the average film fan.  They just LOVE seeing Eminem take HIS shot at being Moe Howard, and Louie Anderson getting a turn as Curly in the "sequel."  The Farrellys aren't making these films to pay tribute to the Three Stooges.  They're making the films to pay BILLS.  So, in effect, the Hollywood "playas" get what they want, yet ANOTHER bite of the apple with their incredibly ill-timed and ill-conceived "re-makes."   Fans of the Stooges, I say to you -- The THREE STOOGES do NOT need some Hollywood 'makeover.'   They made history doing what they did in the 30's thru the 50's and beyond.  By fan sites like ThreeStooges.net standing up and telling these money-grubbing idiots "NO," you'll tell them to protect the sacred memories of some of the world's greatest comedic talents.  You HAVE to boycott this idea that the studio is entertaining.  It's the wrong thing to do.  Again, what someone SHOULD do is the definitive Documentary on the life and times of the Stooges.  THAT, i'll see.  Not THIS.  

And, for X, i'm sorry to sound so harsh on this particular topic, but these Holly-Dopes are getting ready to mess with something I find HIGHLY sacred, and I don't take that lightly.  Mess with Batman and James Bond all you want.  Every one of THOSE films are VERY good.  But don't you DARE cross the line, and mess with Howard, Fine and Howard.   It can't be done right, and shouldn't be attempted.  Documentary, yes.  Biopic, uh-uhh.......Nope.

stooged and confused

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Re: The Master Debates IV: Three Stooges Movie
« Reply #15 on: April 13, 2009, 06:52:39 PM »
Since this is my first participation in one of these debates, I hope I'm not over stepping my bounds and I want the other judges to be able to ask the participants their questions. But, at this point, I don't feel X or WIO have effectively suppoted their stance with my inquiries.

So, I need some more information from you both to be able to make my decision on who reins supreme in this debate.

X, you keep mentioning that I don't know if the movie will bomb or not. I never said it would one way or the other. You need to explain how the old Stooges films would benefit with a hit or miss regarding the modern incarnation.

You state that the more people who watch the "new" movie will turn to the originals. How? I don't see the vast majority of the new Bond audience going to the old Bond films. Same goes for the Stever Martin "Pink Panther" remake. Old Peter Sellers DVD's haven't been reported to have a massive sales surge. My feeling is it was a hit because they put Beyonce in it for the young crowd. She was missing from the second and it did poorly.

Also, you mentioned that the Stooges are starting to fade. How will a hit bring young people to old black and white films (something many TV stations are also avoiding like the plague) and if it bombs, why would they care to explore something old that they had no interest in the "new" version?

Now, Why I Outta..let's clarify what I mean by good. As I said to you, I wrote if the film was entertaining (or to use another word, good) and it was funny (like the modern Bond's were re-tooled for modern times), NOT how much money it makes at the box office. With that said, if the Farrelly's say they want to pay homage, I have to give them the benefit of the doubt until they prove otherwise. After all, they could take on other projects that would be an easier money maker than the Stooges movie with less scrutiny. Thoughts?

Finally, with the issue of "faceless". I'm not clear on what you mean. All of the Bond actor's had a face. And the latest one had a much different look than the others. I recall Bond fans saying that they would not tolerate a BLONDE Bond. But it worked. What about the Stooges themselves? When Shemp rejoined the team, he had a much different face than Curly, yet they still thrived. Okay, now go!


xraffle

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Re: The Master Debates IV: Three Stooges Movie
« Reply #16 on: April 13, 2009, 07:27:35 PM »
Jim: Isn't the rule supposed to be one question per judge? I need your OK before I can answer S&C's next question.

Offline shemps#1

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Re: The Master Debates IV: Three Stooges Movie
« Reply #17 on: April 14, 2009, 10:10:04 AM »
I believe he is asking for clarification of his original question. I will allow it.
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Offline WhyIOughta

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Re: The Master Debates IV: Three Stooges Movie
« Reply #18 on: April 14, 2009, 11:12:25 AM »
OK, S&C....Let me see if I can further muddy the waters....  :D

As far as the movie-to-be, being judged by the general audience as "good" -- To take a HUMONGOUS leap of faith here (reason being that there's not a snowball's chance in Hades that this picture could be "good"), and knowing full well that the true fans of the Three Stooges would never accept any sort opf film like this, and probably chose not to patronize it, I, like some other true fans, would probably take the time to check the DVD out WAAAAY down the road, should it become available down the line, and still keep my desire to boycott the picture intact, for the simple reason being that I didn't spend one cent to pay to get into the theater and see it.  If, for no other reason, to verify my belief that it would be and WAS AWFUL, and should have never been made in the first place.  Again, I just see any effort to make this film as a true waste...

I'll give you an example of a film that, IMHO, fits this "boycott" criteria.......In 1975, a communistic, openly gay poet named Pier Paolo Pasolini made a film called "Salo," his infamous rendition of the Marquis de Sade's compendium of sexual horrors, The 120 Days of Sodom.  This "film" ended up winning numerous "awards" in his native Italy for this piece of trash, and when the film was brought to the United States after his death that same year, boycotts sprung up throughout the nation.  The film was shunned by the press and film fans alike, because, in their eyes, "it was a film that shouldn't have been made."  Pasolini never saw his film take the pipe in the USA, because that same year, Pasolini was run over by his own car (several times, I've heard), and passed on.  Someone tell the Farrellys to keep an eye on their chauffeur...(Laugh)  Moral -- There are always going to be people that want to SEE films that shouldn't be made, but that doesn't mean that people should support them, just because they're openly gay communistic poets.  The Farrellys are adding all the right ingredients for a train wreck, here...All they need is the track.  Sorry, guys, I ain't workin' on the railroad.

OK, next up......Definition:  "Faceless:"  A motion picture character that, IMHO, doesn't need to look exactly LIKE a famous person.  Dick Tracy, Batman, The Joker, Bond, hell, they can look any way they want, which fits my little criteria for 'faceless.'  You can't make a Stooges picture without the characters looking, performing, and acting JUST LIKE the real things.  Stooges fans would DEMAND that the characters be true to the original source, and, IMHO, THAT cannot be accomplished, therefore, my stance on the boycott.

Am I helping here?  (laugh)


xraffle

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Re: The Master Debates IV: Three Stooges Movie
« Reply #19 on: April 14, 2009, 11:20:28 AM »
X, you keep mentioning that I don't know if the movie will bomb or not. I never said it would one way or the other. You need to explain how the old Stooges films would benefit with a hit or miss regarding the modern incarnation.

You state that the more people who watch the "new" movie will turn to the originals. How? I don't see the vast majority of the new Bond audience going to the old Bond films. Same goes for the Stever Martin "Pink Panther" remake. Old Peter Sellers DVD's haven't been reported to have a massive sales surge. My feeling is it was a hit because they put Beyonce in it for the young crowd. She was missing from the second and it did poorly.

Also, you mentioned that the Stooges are starting to fade. How will a hit bring young people to old black and white films (something many TV stations are also avoiding like the plague) and if it bombs, why would they care to explore something old that they had no interest in the "new" version?

S&C, I have to be honest. My reasoning was my belief of why I think we should support this movie. I'm sorry if it doesn't convince you to see the movie, but it's enough to convince me. I'll try to see if I can convince you one last time and I hope I can succeed. I can't guarantee it's reincarnation. But it's worth a shot. The worse thing that can happen is the amount of stooge fans will remain the same. Stooge fans know how good the boys really are. So, if this movie ends up being a disaster, we'll still watch the original stooges. If the movie becomes a big hit, then possibly people will start watching the original stooges again. Like I said, the stooges may start to air on TV again. When people flip channels and see the stooges on, they'll see how funny the boys really are.

Older James Bond movies are selling well. The older movies are starting to be released on Blu-ray. Manufacturing BDs are expensive and companies are only going to invest in movies that are popular. Fox wouldn't spend the time making Blu-ray discs of the James Bond movies if they weren't still popular. A lot of people still know about James Bond and how good Sean Connery was. That's because more and more Bond movies keep coming out.

If they had no interest in the "new" version, then no harm, no foul. Like I said, the number of stooge fans will remain the same. If it does become a success, then there may be more stooge fans out there. I used examples of TMNT and Batman because the new movies brought in more fans. But, there are movies like "The Honeymooners" that bombed, but look, there's still plenty of Honeymooners fans out there. It didn't drain away any fans. My point, the new stooge film can either help or not help. It will not hurt in any way. So, what I'm saying is: there's a chance the new movie will bring in more stooge fans. I can't guarantee it, but it's worth a shot. By just saying "boycott the movie, it's a waste" right now before any filming started is a hasty decision to make.


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Re: The Master Debates IV: Three Stooges Movie
« Reply #20 on: April 14, 2009, 11:22:00 AM »
Oops...forgot my point of "faceless," in regards to the Stooges......When Shemp Howard re-joined the team, that was a (wise) choice made by the actors themselves, helping that "the show must go on."  Shemp WAS a Stooge, originally, and it's not a huge leap to re-introduce him to the fans that loved the shorts.  Shemp Howard had already established himself as a true member of the Three Stooges.  He was and IS one of the faces of the team.  You can't put Steve-O on stage and call him Curly Howard, simply because you believe that the character's appearances are interchangeable.  "They ain't."  (laugh)  Shemp was and IS a Stooge.  Del Toro Ain't.  Carrey Ain't.  Penn Ain't.  And they ain't a-gonna be, even if they make that picture.   Hence, my boycott stance.

xraffle

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Re: The Master Debates IV: Three Stooges Movie
« Reply #21 on: April 14, 2009, 11:27:55 AM »
Now, do the other Judgy-wudgies (Rob, Justin and Doug) have any questions for me and WIO? I feel like S&C is the only judge. ;D

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Re: The Master Debates IV: Three Stooges Movie
« Reply #22 on: April 14, 2009, 11:39:40 AM »
Now, do the other Judgy-wudgies (Rob, Justin and Doug) have any questions for me and WIO? I feel like S&C is the only judge. ;D

I'm in work right now and barely have time to read the arguments.  MUST- HELP- ANGRY - PEOPLE - AND - GET - PAID.  AAARGH!!  Anywho, will hopefully get to any questions tonight.

Offline WhyIOughta

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Re: The Master Debates IV: Three Stooges Movie
« Reply #23 on: April 14, 2009, 11:50:20 AM »
Poor guy....Here, Metaldams, i'll give ya the cliff-notes.  X says, "sure, go ahead," and I say, "nah, forget it."    >:D


Offline Justin T

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Re: The Master Debates IV: Three Stooges Movie
« Reply #24 on: April 14, 2009, 02:23:51 PM »
Stooged and Confused's questions were pretty darn close to thoughts I had concerning
your arguments.

I've been thinking if there is anything else I could ask, but I'm coming up empty

So, I think I'm going to pass on asking any questions for now
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