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Author Topic: The Master Debates I: Besser VS Derita  (Read 12807 times)

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Offline Giff me dat fill-em!

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Re: The Master Debates I: Besser VS Derita
« Reply #25 on: January 16, 2009, 05:58:24 PM »
You other judges, PLEASE don't let Dunrobin's statements color your selection. His views ARE, (after all) HIS views.
Use the higher lobes in your own brains to decide what your true thoughts are upon this subject. Me, Metaldams, AND Joe and Joe would appreciate your honesty.

(Sorry, Rob, I didn't mean to make you out as the "bad guy" ...)
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Offline Justin T

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Re: The Master Debates I: Besser VS Derita
« Reply #26 on: January 16, 2009, 09:33:43 PM »
Well, I have taken a few days to think it over, and I will give my vote to:

Giff me dat fill-em!

My reasons are very similar to Rob's. I've never had issues with Besser or DeRita. And while Joe may have been
a better comedian and had more of a unique personality, Curly-Joe fit in better with Moe and Larry then Joe
did and worked better as a member of the Stooges.

I want to commend both Metal and Giff for providing two very good arguments. Well done, both of you.
"Moronica must expand! We must lend our neighbors a helping hand. We must lend them two helping hands, and help ourselves to our neighbors!"
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Moe: Brilliant, what’ll it be?
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Offline locoboymakesgood

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Re: The Master Debates I: Besser VS Derita
« Reply #27 on: January 16, 2009, 10:19:59 PM »
I've come to my verdict...

I'm going to go in a different direction, and go with metal. After reading both arguments over a couple of times, I think he conveyed a point that pretty much hit the nail on the head. Besser and DeRita aren't really true Stooges to most of us, but metal had me believing that Besser is the better one.

I will say it's nearly equal, too. Giff gave a great argument.
"Are you guys actors, or hillbillies?" - Curly, "Hollywood Party" (1934)

Offline curlysdame

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Re: The Master Debates I: Besser VS Derita
« Reply #28 on: January 16, 2009, 10:41:48 PM »
I've come to my verdict...

I'm going to go in a different direction, and go with metal. After reading both arguments over a couple of times, I think he conveyed a point that pretty much hit the nail on the head. Besser and DeRita aren't really true Stooges to most of us, but metal had me believing that Besser is the better one.

I've also come to my decision: I'm going with metal, too.  Locoboy, you took the words right outta my mouth. 

A lot of good points were brought up by both debaters; 'job well done to Giff and metal!
"Imagine five things like us in one room??  I can't stand it!" - Curly (Time Out For Rhythm 1941)

Offline Justin T

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Re: The Master Debates I: Besser VS Derita
« Reply #29 on: January 16, 2009, 10:48:15 PM »
Wow, we have a tie folks. That means Shemps#1 will have to break the tie and decide who wins.
"Moronica must expand! We must lend our neighbors a helping hand. We must lend them two helping hands, and help ourselves to our neighbors!"
Moe in "You Natzi Spy!"

Larry: Say, when I come back I’ll give you a password.
Moe: Brilliant, what’ll it be?
Larry: Open The Door!
"Studio Stoops"

Offline metaldams

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Re: The Master Debates I: Besser VS Derita
« Reply #30 on: January 16, 2009, 11:10:23 PM »
 :o

Offline metaldams

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Re: The Master Debates I: Besser VS Derita
« Reply #31 on: January 16, 2009, 11:24:32 PM »
So Jim, I gotta ask.......

Down 2 - 0, I come back to tie.

Is Giff Matt Garza, or do I have D-Lowe closing in the 9th?

Offline Giff me dat fill-em!

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Re: The Master Debates I: Besser VS Derita
« Reply #32 on: January 17, 2009, 07:00:25 AM »
So Jim, I gotta ask.......

Down 2 - 0, I come back to tie.

Is Giff Matt Garza, or do I have D-Lowe closing in the 9th?

In any case, Shemps#1 is getting VERY good workout for his forum. He always said it was a "work in progress", but it seems that that will not be a problem anymore.
The tacks won't come out! Well, they went in ... maybe they're income tacks.

Offline shemps#1

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Re: The Master Debates I: Besser VS Derita
« Reply #33 on: January 17, 2009, 10:58:46 AM »
You sons (and daughter) of bitches! :P

I was hoping it wouldn't come down to me because this is a difficult decision. So difficult in fact that I am going have to reread everything before rendering my verdict. I should be ready to declare the winner in a couple of hours, max.

<Cue the Jeopardy! theme>
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Offline shemps#1

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Re: The Master Debates I: Besser VS Derita
« Reply #34 on: January 17, 2009, 11:59:32 AM »
After re-reading the arguments, rebuttals and question answers again, I have made what was a VERY tough decision: and it all came down to one line.

Before I make the announcement I would like to thank everyone involved. Doug and Fred, the two of you did an excellent job, and I will reveal that both of you mentioned to me in Private Message that you weren't 100% sure about the stances you were going to take. You knew that this was not going to be easy, yet you took it head on. If TMD II does not come about due to lack of participation it will not be because you two stunk up the joint. In all seriousness (despite my above post) it is only fitting that the inaugural Master Debates comes down to a tie-breaker.

To the judges, Rob, Sarah, Justin and Loco, thank you very much for taking the time to thoroughly go over all of the evidence presented to you and rendering what I know was a very difficult decision. If TMD continues on from this point forward I sincerely hope I that future editions get a group of judges that are at least as half as good as you guys are.

Now, as hard as it was to make this decision it was also difficult to find weak spots in the arguments of both Fred and Doug. I was able to find just one weakness on each of you, and I thought I would point those out...just to be a dick.

Doug - Where you lost me was when you brought up Besser as Stinky on Abbott and Costello. While Joe B. was great as Stinky this was strictly about who was the better Stooge, so this did not help your argument.

Fred - Where you faltered, in my eyes, is when you mentioned Derita "making an effort to recapture the days of Moe, Larry, Curly". There is no way anyone could have come in and recaptured the days of the Stooges with Curly (or Shemp), and I felt as though this weakened your argument.

As far as I'm concerned it all came down to the rebuttals. What tipped the scales for me was this line:

Quote
If I want to watch that style of comedy I'll stick with the guys who do it well, not the guy who simply does it.

This showed me that Doug was able pinpoint Fred's "Achillies Heel" and in my eyes delivered a fatal blow.

So it is with that I announce metaldams, that you sir are truly a Master Debater.

I hope you guys realize how difficult it was for myself and the Judges to render our decisions.

Let's not forget that February will feature The Master Debates II: From a Purely Artistic Standpoint, When Should The Three Stooges Have Called It Quits? I am currently taking submissions, and everyone except for myself and Doug are eligible to participate. Fred you can very come back looking to avenge your narrow defeat, and after seeing your work in TMD I it would be a tough chore for anyone to try to challenge you. I'd also like to see the xraffles, jazzbills, these judges, etc try their hands as well.

The floor is now open to the general public for feedback on TMD I: Besser vs Derita, as well as any suggestions on the format or future debate topics, etc.
"Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day; teach a man to fish and he will eat for a lifetime; give a man religion and he will die praying for a fish." - Unknown

Offline Dunrobin

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Re: The Master Debates I: Besser VS Derita
« Reply #35 on: January 17, 2009, 02:45:03 PM »
Congratulations to metaldams, you Master Debater!   [pie]

Since I knew your address, I've already ordered your prize: a year's subscription to The Three Stooges Journal.  Again, congratulations, Doug, and better luck next time, Giff!

Offline Giff me dat fill-em!

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Re: The Master Debates I: Besser VS Derita
« Reply #36 on: January 17, 2009, 03:39:11 PM »
A very well deserved congrats to you, Sir Metaldams. I want everyone to know that I enjoy Joe Besser as well as any Stooge fan ... (I was dissing him only to win the prize!)

Again, congratulations. (I wonder how well I'd have done if I had to represent Besser ... hhmmmm)
The tacks won't come out! Well, they went in ... maybe they're income tacks.

Offline metaldams

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Re: The Master Debates I: Besser VS Derita
« Reply #37 on: January 17, 2009, 04:35:19 PM »
Now that the debate is over, I agree professionally, and for the career happiness of Moe and Larry, Derita was better than Besser.  As a fan who actually watches the films, I prefer Besser artistically.  Besser was a TOUGH stance to take because he draws such dislike from the Stooge audience, more so than Derita, but he was a better clown who added more to the group and I obviously used that as my stance.  In reality, their situations when joining the group were apples and oranges. 

Well, I would like to thank all who participated.  You judges were all fair (Jim, Curlysdame, and Loco, your checks will arrive shortly in the mail), and thoughtful, and Giff did an excellent job and gave me a run for my money.  I had a great time doing this and it was good to use the old brain again.  Too bad I can't debate in the next contest, but I completely understand why.

PS: Not that I'd ever reinstate him, but from a pure comic standpoint, how do you guys feel SLIPP would handle losing one of these things, especially to SDJ? 

Offline Desmond Of The Outer Sanctorum

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Re: The Master Debates I: Besser VS Derita
« Reply #38 on: January 17, 2009, 05:01:27 PM »
Excellent arguments in favor of both Joes.

I have to admit I'm somewhat partial to Besser, because I see the potential he had that wasn't realized because of low budgets & the fact that no one in charge cared anymore. I think he gets unjustly blamed for shorts whose real problems were mostly factors besides him. But IMO, while Besser often fails to rise above the material, Curly Joe (to the extent I've seen films with him) often fails even to rise to the level of the material.

BTW, I don't think the Stooges could have gotten better than Besser at the time (though I would like to have seen how Curly Joe did in shorts, since full-length features just aren't the same), and I wonder if Shemp himself would have approved of the replacement he got. He & Joe were friends, after all, weren't they?

Anyway, I like all the Stooges (if some more than others), and I enjoyed seeing both of the frequently-maligned Joes being eloquently defended for a change. Good job, all!
"Give me a smart idiot over a stupid genius any day." -- Samuel Goldwyn

Many would rather believe a lie because truth demands a response.

Offline garystooge

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Re: The Master Debates I: Besser VS Derita
« Reply #39 on: January 17, 2009, 05:15:00 PM »
Great job by everyone involved! For me, this debate would have boiled down to the following:
1) Besser was funny
2) DeRita was not
That make Besser a better Stooge.

My suggestion for the future would be to let those who are not judges interject a question for the debaters during the rebuttal phase.  That would widen involvement and participation and perhaps reveal a strength or weakness in one of the arguments that would not have been uncovered with only the judges asking questions.
Gary

Offline metaldams

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Re: The Master Debates I: Besser VS Derita
« Reply #40 on: January 17, 2009, 07:09:39 PM »
I would like to ask early if I can be a judge for the next one, if I am allowed to do so.  Also, am I allowed to compete EVER again, or only after a certain time period? 

Giff, good luck next time, and I hope we face off again in the future, my most worthy adversary.  I'll just have to haaaaaaaarrrm you again (metal delivers wimpy little bitch slap).

Future debate ideas.

- Do the stock foortage shorts have merit?

- Charley Chase: Good Stooge director?

- Should The Three Stooges have made real features with Curly, or were they better off in shorts?

- Jules White Vs. Edward Bernds: The Ultimate Shemp director showdown.




Offline Justin T

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Re: The Master Debates I: Besser VS Derita
« Reply #41 on: January 17, 2009, 08:02:41 PM »
I would like to ask early if I can be a judge for the next one, if I am allowed to do so.  Also, am I allowed to compete EVER again, or only after a certain time period? 

Giff, good luck next time, and I hope we face off again in the future, my most worthy adversary.  I'll just have to haaaaaaaarrrm you again (metal delivers wimpy little bitch slap).

Future debate ideas.

- Do the stock foortage shorts have merit?

- Charley Chase: Good Stooge director?

- Should The Three Stooges have made real features with Curly, or were they better off in shorts?

- Jules White Vs. Edward Bernds: The Ultimate Shemp director showdown.


Those are some really good topics we can use. I'd love to tackle any one of those.

I had alot of fun judging this round. I'm thinking of submitting for the next Debate.
I'll have to think it over and see if I can come up with a good response and argument.

Gary's suggestion to allow others to ask questions sounds good, it could open up more debate
and participation. But that decision is of course up to Shemps
"Moronica must expand! We must lend our neighbors a helping hand. We must lend them two helping hands, and help ourselves to our neighbors!"
Moe in "You Natzi Spy!"

Larry: Say, when I come back I’ll give you a password.
Moe: Brilliant, what’ll it be?
Larry: Open The Door!
"Studio Stoops"

Offline locoboymakesgood

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Re: The Master Debates I: Besser VS Derita
« Reply #42 on: January 17, 2009, 08:40:37 PM »
I had a lot of fun judging this round. I hope we get another gone going soon.

Congrats to metal, and Giff, for a well-fought debate.
"Are you guys actors, or hillbillies?" - Curly, "Hollywood Party" (1934)

Offline shemps#1

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Re: The Master Debates I: Besser VS Derita
« Reply #43 on: January 17, 2009, 09:19:03 PM »
Ok, Doug yes you can be a judge for TMD II...in fact I was going to ask you. However TMD II: When Should The Stooges Have Called It Quits may not take place if I don't get any applications. I know there are more than two people on this board that are up to the task. Also, you will once again be eligible to debate in TMD III, if it takes place at all.

That's a great suggestion, Gary; perhaps after the judges get their questions in I'll open the floor to questions from the general public. I'd have to put a time limit on it though.
"Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day; teach a man to fish and he will eat for a lifetime; give a man religion and he will die praying for a fish." - Unknown

Offline Giff me dat fill-em!

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Re: The Master Debates I: Besser VS Derita
« Reply #44 on: January 17, 2009, 11:19:28 PM »
I was going to sit out TMD II, but if there are no takers, I'll submit. Enjoy your fame, Metaldams, I know I would be swimming in the spotlight right now. And by the way, your wimpy little bitch slap would have been repulsed by a barrage of yelling and a belly bonk/forehead bonk.

The tacks won't come out! Well, they went in ... maybe they're income tacks.

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Re: The Master Debates I: Besser VS Derita
« Reply #45 on: January 25, 2009, 10:48:28 PM »
Excellent debate gentlemen.  Kudos for the well thought out arguments.  I have to tip my hat to Besser personally.
It seems obvious enough in retrospect, but perhaps for the next debate S#1 should choose an odd number of judges in order to avoid another potential tie.  Unless of course he actually likes the intense pressure of deciding the winner.  [banghead]   

Offline shemps#1

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Re: The Master Debates I: Besser VS Derita
« Reply #46 on: January 25, 2009, 11:01:27 PM »
You hit it right on the head, Paul. I like the pressure, and I think it adds a little something to TMD as well (not that I want to do it every single time, just when it contests merits it).

Why don't you try out for TMD II? I'd bet you'd be good at it.
"Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day; teach a man to fish and he will eat for a lifetime; give a man religion and he will die praying for a fish." - Unknown