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Author Topic: Moe's Slaps  (Read 9988 times)

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Offline Themescules

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Moe's Slaps
« on: October 26, 2004, 09:33:42 AM »
I saw this ebay auction and was wondering if this would be considered copyright infringement to the Stooges and The Besser family, plus this guy also has other Stooge related DVD's that he has "Made" himself.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=1467&item=5530458647

http://cgi6.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?MfcISAPICommand=ViewListedItems&since=30&userid=tvshowclassics&include=0&rows=50&sort=3

Check out the way he worded this auction:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=1467&item=5523042537

What do you guys think?
« Last Edit: October 26, 2004, 09:37:39 AM by Themescules »
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Offline 123cagney

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Re: Joe Besser Copyright infringement
« Reply #1 on: October 26, 2004, 05:46:10 PM »
Anytime you MAKE a COPY of someone elses product and sell it for profit,Yes, that would be copyright infringment. Ebay is suppose to be on top of this stuff. However I think selling your old (authentic) junk would be ok.

Offline shemps#1

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Re: Joe Besser Copyright infringement
« Reply #2 on: October 26, 2004, 05:58:29 PM »
Yepper, to quote Judas Priest the dude is "breakin' the law, breakin' the law!"
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Offline 123cagney

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Re: Joe Besser Copyright infringement
« Reply #3 on: October 26, 2004, 07:06:21 PM »
BUT... he may end up being the ONLY one releasing Besser on DVD. Law breaker- 1  columbia-0

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Re: Joe Besser Copyright infringement
« Reply #4 on: October 26, 2004, 09:26:48 PM »
BUT... he may end up being the ONLY one releasing Besser on DVD. Law breaker- 1  columbia-0

Looking at this guy's product list, he's been duplicating and selling a lot of old films, and how many could he have the rights to? He probably doesn't even have the rights to that Stooges caricature he's using on the Besser shorts box... I've seen it somewhere before.

So here we have a good old moral dilemma... I'd like to own those Columbia Buster Keaton shorts myself (they're a lot funnier than Jim Kline and other Keaton commentators would have you believe), but I don't want to encourage piracy, either. So, I'll (reluctantly) pass them up.

 :(

Offline 123cagney

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Re: Joe Besser Copyright infringement
« Reply #5 on: October 27, 2004, 05:51:14 AM »
Your not missing anything. I've never seen THIS guys dupes, but I have seen my fair share of em. These aren't DIGITALLY mastered copies, trust me. These dvd dupes are generally a thousand times worse than the old school 2nd generation video copies. And thats probably what they're transfering from. I wish Columbia  would follow the path the Abbott and Costello dvd's have taken, and release all the Besser and Shemp shorts in volumes.

Offline 3Stooges

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Re: Joe Besser Copyright infringement
« Reply #6 on: October 27, 2004, 01:17:58 PM »
Sometimes these "Homemade DVD sellers" provide the only way to get things. I dont mind them. I've gotten a ton of stuff on Ebay that I wouldnt have been able to get otherwise.

I do have a problem with Columbia ignoring the Besser era for 25 year since home movies have been popular. Not 1 has been released.

If the choice is... #1 Getting them from a seller on Ebay, Or #2 Waiting forever until Columbia releases them which they may NEVER do!....

I'll take Ebay.

Offline 123cagney

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Re: Joe Besser Copyright infringement
« Reply #7 on: October 27, 2004, 06:39:39 PM »
BUT... he may end up being the ONLY one releasing Besser on DVD. Law breaker- 1  columbia-0

Looking at this guy's product list, he's been duplicating and selling a lot of old films, and how many could he have the rights to? He probably doesn't even have the rights to that Stooges caricature he's using on the Besser shorts box... I've seen it somewhere before.

So here we have a good old moral dilemma... I'd like to own those Columbia
Buster Keaton shorts myself (they're a lot funnier than Jim Kline and other Keaton commentators would have you believe), but I don't want to encourage piracy, either. So, I'll (reluctantly) pass them up.
 :(

Quote
Did you see what the winning bidder paid? (For the Besser/Stooge disc) $120 smackeroos! Plus he taged on a wopping $6 bucks for shipping! Boy, am I in the wrong business (custodial-the typical stooge job). I can just hear the Howard and Derita families now-"soooo,holdin out on me aehhhhh!"


Well, I guess that if you're the kind of collector who wants everything the Stooges ever put on film, it was worth it. There used to be a lot of Besser-bashing on this board a few years back, and I wasn't part of it, but the Joe B. era was at the tail end of the Stooges' career at Columbia, and the shorts reflect that (the cruddy production values and scripts, especially).

Besides, Besser didn't want to do any hard slapstick, and that's what makes him the weakest Stooge. Not that they're all so bad— I like the "Outer Space" Besser shorts, but the talking horse ones are geshtunkener dreck, chozzerai!

 :(
« Last Edit: October 28, 2004, 04:20:13 AM by Pilsner Panther »

Offline leandar

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Re: Joe Besser Copyright infringement
« Reply #8 on: November 01, 2004, 01:02:07 AM »
But at the same time, the Besser shorts had the best opening, IMO.  I loved that where they stand there and do the "Hello, hello, hello.  Hello!" bit at the beginning.  Gave the opening a bit more life, I think.

Besides, in some respects, I can't blame Joe for not wanting to do the hard slapstick, it's not everyone's cup of tea to get slapped around all over the place, money or not.

Also, I've always figured that he probably realized what happened to Curly and what probably would have happened to Shemp had the heart attack not intervened, and was afraid maybe that if he allowed himself to get slapped around all over the place, that he would end up the exact same way.  And seeing as how Larry also ended up dying from several strokes, maybe Joe Besser was the smart one.

Offline 123cagney

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Re: Joe Besser Copyright infringement
« Reply #9 on: November 01, 2004, 05:33:56 AM »
But at the same time, the Besser shorts had the best opening, IMO.  I loved that where they stand there and do the "Hello, hello, hello.  Hello!" bit at the beginning.  Gave the opening a bit more life, I think.

Besides, in some respects, I can't blame Joe for not wanting to do the hard slapstick, it's not everyone's cup of tea to get slapped around all over the place, money or not.

Also, I've always figured that he probably realized what happened to Curly and what probably would have happened to Shemp had the heart attack not intervened, and was afraid maybe that if he allowed himself to get slapped around all over the place, that he would end up the exact same way.  And seeing as how Larry also ended up dying from several strokes, maybe Joe Besser was the smart one.
I have the feeling LIFESTYLE killed curly,not slapping.

Offline 3Stooges

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Re: Joe Besser Copyright infringement
« Reply #10 on: November 01, 2004, 09:25:41 AM »
Were the slaps really THAT hard? Wasn't it all smoke and mirrors? If you look closely, Moe opens up his hand before he connected, Plus you had the sound effects that made it seem like Moe was hitting the fellow Stooges hard. Also, when Moe would hit someone on the forehead with his palm, Moe would barely skim the top of the Stooges head. The recipient would then throw their head back to make it look like he got hit hard. Again, using sound effects.

By the way, I think Joe Besser took a serious beating in Flying Saucer Daffy and Oil's Well that Ends Well and got his eyes poked.



Offline leandar

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Re: Joe Besser Copyright infringement
« Reply #11 on: November 01, 2004, 10:27:27 AM »
Quote
I have the feeling LIFESTYLE killed curly,not slapping.

Well, I'm sure that played a big part.  But I'm saying the slaps had to contribute because

1)  Look what happened to Larry, and he didn't live as wildly as Curly did, but they died from the same thing.  I still believe it would have also happened to Shemp if the heart attack hadn't happened.

2)  If the ABC TV movie was right, then Curly apparently told Moe to hit him harder, at least in those live shows.  and so apparently he was already starting to suffer some early effects because of when they started the shorts he said something like "now I won't have to have all those headaches from you slapping me so hard." 

I'm not saying it was the only thing, but that it certainly contributed.

Quote
Were the slaps really THAT hard? Wasn't it all smoke and mirrors? If you look closely, Moe opens up his hand before he connected, Plus you had the sound effects that made it seem like Moe was hitting the fellow Stooges hard. Also, when Moe would hit someone on the forehead with his palm, Moe would barely skim the top of the Stooges head. The recipient would then throw their head back to make it look like he got hit hard. Again, using sound effects.

Well, sure in the shorts.  But from what I understand through reading and what the TV movie seemed to imply was that they had to really smack each other during the live shows.  Maybe if there's someone here who saw them live sees this, maybe they can help.

Also, I remember Nate Budnick saying that Larry's face was all calloused and raw from Moe slapping him.  I doubt it would have gotten that rock hard without getting real slaps in those performances too.  I wouldn't be surprised if Curly and Shemp had calloused faces too.


Quote
By the way, I think Joe Besser took a serious beating in Flying Saucer Daffy and Oil's Well that Ends Well and got his eyes poked.

You may be right.  It's been years since I really got to watch the Joe Besser shorts. 

Offline Baggie

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Re: Joe Besser Copyright infringement
« Reply #12 on: November 01, 2004, 04:36:27 PM »
 :)   yo guys, from what i've read it was said that although moe did his best to make the slaps as painless as possible, he did hit the other guys, and when you're taking hits the head constantly for years, i can't see that being good. and yes, curly did ask moe to hit him harder in the stage shows so the audience could hear it.

i saw larry fine's last film interview, and he said something like "we didn't pull any punches. i say we, i mean MOE didn't pull any punches. when he hit, he hit, what you see is what WE got!"

so i suppose joe besser was looking out for his health after he saw what happened to curly and shemp. but the hits are part of what the stooges are about. take them away and you lose a part of the stooges. if joe didn't want to be hit, he should have been firmer with columbia and told them he didn't want to be a stooge.

peace out dudes,  sarah

LEARN HOW TO TYPE! S#1
« Last Edit: November 05, 2004, 10:21:18 PM by shemps#1 »
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Offline leandar

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Re: Joe Besser Copyright infringement
« Reply #13 on: November 01, 2004, 05:35:15 PM »
Well, I have to say I understand what you're saying, but it seems to me, at least from what I've read and the TV movie, that Besser was basically "assigned" to the Stooges by Columbia.  Joe may have felt he didn't have any choice.  I don't know.  Maybe there's someone still who knew him who might know the story.

Offline 3Stooges

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Re: Joe Besser Copyright infringement
« Reply #14 on: November 01, 2004, 08:20:01 PM »
Does anyone know if they used a sound effects man on the side of the stage live to enhance the slaps and punches?

Offline leandar

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Re: Joe Besser Copyright infringement
« Reply #15 on: November 01, 2004, 09:17:21 PM »
I don't think they did.

Offline Senorita Rita

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Re: Joe Besser Copyright infringement
« Reply #16 on: November 05, 2004, 08:05:33 PM »


Quote
If the ABC TV movie was right,
LOL!  ::)
...to say the least, if not less...

Offline leandar

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Re: Joe Besser Copyright infringement
« Reply #17 on: November 05, 2004, 09:57:04 PM »
Well, Seniorita, that's why I said IF.

I've only read partially one book on the Stooges, hoping to get another, and most of my behind the scenes knowledge of them comes from the A&E biography.  Otherwise, I'm not very knowledgeable.  Can you help?

Offline Dunrobin

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Re: Joe Besser Copyright infringement
« Reply #18 on: November 05, 2004, 11:48:13 PM »
Well, Seniorita, that's why I said IF.

I've only read partially one book on the Stooges, hoping to get another, and most of my behind the scenes knowledge of them comes from the A&E biography. Otherwise, I'm not very knowledgeable. Can you help?


Tip:  You can order several books from Amazon.com on the Stooges through Bibliography link in the menu on the left.

Offline kinderscenen

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Re: Joe Besser Copyright infringement
« Reply #19 on: November 06, 2004, 12:58:15 PM »
Were the slaps real? There was a particular slap in "Who Done It?" that never fails to make me laugh out loud and cringe at the same time. After the fellows are untied, Larry answers the phone, and after his "We were tied up!" line, Moe comes through with this slap that looks REAL--you can see a bit of saliva on Larry's lower lip as a result. So, yes, while Moe may have had to soften the blows occasionally, I don't think it's possible for anyone to execute slaps like that (and that fast) by spreading out their fingers. And even if you did, it doesn't soften it that much.

Interestingly, Larry gave conflicting comments on Moe's slaps. In the "Stoogephile" (I can't remember the exact title, but it's the 1982 Jeff Forester book), he states that Moe's hands were soft, the slaps weren't that hard, and that Moe had a beautiful touch, "He could've been a pickpocket!" But in Larry's interview (the last one), he says that it was real, which actually makes sense, considering that it was unlikely that there would be that much change from the stage shows when it came to slapstick.
Larry: They’ll hang us for this!
Moe: I know! Let’s cremate him!
Larry: Can’t do that--we ain’t got no cream!

Pilsner Panther

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Re: Moe's Slaps
« Reply #20 on: November 06, 2004, 02:17:16 PM »
Sorry for this, I'm still trying to understand all the commands on this new BBS, and I'm lost.

Larry: "I can't see, I can't see!"

Moe: "Why?"

Larry: "I've got my eyes closed."


There should be a way to re-route a topic and give it a new header without importing every single message from the earlier one, so maybe I'll figure it out at some point.

The command (as least as I've understood it in most older BBS programs), is "Split Topic."

Anyway, what I really wanted to talk about was Moe's slapping of Larry and the other Stooges. Moe's slaps are the funniest when you don't expect them— when they come out of absolutely nowhere. A perfect example is this one, from "Ants In the Pantry."

The Stooges, as exterminators, are going out to catch rats and mice and bugs, but suddenly Larry enters, holding up a bear trap:

Moe: "What's that for?"

Larry: "You never know, we might meet up with a bear."

Moe: "Yeah? Meet my bare hand!"

Then Moe slaps Larry hard, and I don't think that was any sound effect!

 :D


« Last Edit: November 06, 2004, 02:22:33 PM by Pilsner Panther »

Offline Baggie

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Re: Moe's Slaps
« Reply #21 on: November 06, 2004, 03:46:22 PM »
 :)   hello, i was recently warned about my conduct on the message board so i'll calm it a bit. the best stooge books i've read were 'triumphs and tradgedies etc etc.' by the forrester bros, 'the stooge cronicles' and moe howard autobiography. 'from amalgamated morons...etc' and curly's biography aren't bad. where can i get 'stoogephile' does anyone know? i'm currently after 'stroke of luck' and it comes up occasionally on e-bay for about $200 odd. does anyone own that, and if so what is it like? worth the cash?

peace
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Offline shemps#1

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Re: Moe's Slaps
« Reply #22 on: November 06, 2004, 05:49:50 PM »
It's not your conduct I have a problem with; it's your typing. From the looks of it you are being incredibly lazy (i.e. no caps in your post whatsoever).

Look people, not only does shoddy typing make you look stupid, it also gives me a migraine.
"Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day; teach a man to fish and he will eat for a lifetime; give a man religion and he will die praying for a fish." - Unknown

Offline Baggie

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Re: Moe's Slaps
« Reply #23 on: November 07, 2004, 07:45:03 PM »
 :-\  hmm OK sorry is this better? Can anyone answer my questions about the books?
   By the way I just bought the ABC TV movie on DVD because we can't get it on TV in England and it is the biggest innacurate pile of poop I've ever seen. Does anyone agree that we should be treated to something better than that, because I can think of so many faults with it.
   Has anyone read the script of 'Forever The Boys' by Charkes Welty?? It's quite good, very accurate, but it doesn't mention Shemp enough.

Peace dudes
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Offline shemps#1

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Re: Moe's Slaps
« Reply #24 on: November 08, 2004, 09:48:15 PM »
Close enough; I took of the warning.
"Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day; teach a man to fish and he will eat for a lifetime; give a man religion and he will die praying for a fish." - Unknown