Soitenly
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Author Topic: Re: Tolkien (split from Cover Songs)  (Read 6719 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Pilsner Panther

  • Guest
Re: Tolkien (split from Cover Songs)
« on: May 05, 2006, 11:31:50 AM »
  • Publish
  • EDIT NOTE FROM DUNROBIN -
    I've split these posts off from the Cover Songs thread, since while its an interesting discussion, these posts had nothing to do with the original topic.



    However, the Nimoy rendition of "Bilbo Baggins" isn't all that bad, in fact, its kinda cute.


    Well, Giff, it can't be any worse than the source material. Damn, how I despise that "elfish whimsy" crapola. J.R.R. Tolkien is the (singing) William Shatner of novelists.

    I was assigned to read and do a book report on the first "Lord of the Rings" novel when I was a freshman in high school. After reading one chapter, I practically begged my English teacher to give me another book to read, because I was just getting sick to my stomach with all the cutesy-poo swill on every page.

    He was surprised, but he agreed, and he gave me Herman Melville's "Typee" instead. I think we were both relieved. I didn't have to read another page of that Tolkien garbage, and he didn't have to read the book report in which I would have trashed it like nobody's business. Which it would have well deserved.

     [bitchin]

    From Dorothy Parker's review of the original "Winnie The Pooh," in the New Yorker, 1920's: "Tonstant weader fwows up."

    And there you have a reaction exactly like mine to Tolkien's "writing," from about 60 years before.

    [thumbsdown]

    « Last Edit: May 07, 2006, 09:27:33 AM by Dunrobin »

    Offline shemps#1

    • Pothead, Libertarian, Administrator, Resident Crank and Baron of Greymatter
    • Global Moderator
    • Chowderhead
    • ******
    • Posts: 3,771
    • Gender: Male
    • Hatchet Man
      • View Profile
    Re: Tolkien (split from Cover Songs)
    « Reply #1 on: May 05, 2006, 11:58:35 AM »
  • Publish
  • I know this is veering off topic, but I couldn't agree more Pils. Tolkien is absolute garbage. Some lady I was banging five years or so back suggested I give those books a chance, and I got through about ten pages before I gave up in disgust.

    Pure fucking garbage.
    "Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day; teach a man to fish and he will eat for a lifetime; give a man religion and he will die praying for a fish." - Unknown

    Offline Dunrobin

    • (Rob)
    • Administrator
    • Chowderhead
    • ******
    • Posts: 3,878
    • Gender: Male
    • Webmaster
      • View Profile
    Re: Tolkien (split from Cover Songs)
    « Reply #2 on: May 05, 2006, 12:35:44 PM »
  • Publish
  • You know, guys, sometimes I just can't help thinking that you're a couple of horses' patoots.  Probably comes from living in those dens of iniquity on either coast.   ::)

    Pilsner Panther

    • Guest
    Re: Tolkien (split from Cover Songs)
    « Reply #3 on: May 05, 2006, 01:20:37 PM »
  • Publish
  • You know, guys, sometimes I just can't help thinking that you're a couple of horses' patoots.  Probably comes from living in those dens of iniquity on either coast.   ::)

    Well, Rob, you picked us as moderators.

     [doh]

    Anyway, it didn't help that that English teacher was gayer than springtime, and he basically didn't have a clue about much of anything. He also wore impossibly thick eyeglasses that looked like Dr. Gesundeheit's in "Scrambled Brains," and whenever he heard some disturbance in the back of the classroom, he'd scan helplessly for the source of the trouble, like Captain Ahab looking into the middle distance for the White Whale.

    Good ol' Mr. Fitzgibbons, known to his students as "Fairy Fitz" (behind his back, of course).

    So, one day he came in and announced, "Thith month, boyth, we're going to read about the Hobbiths. They're thort of like elveth or pixieth, except that they've got the most darling little furry feet, ath you'll read in the thory."

    At this point, practically every kid in the room was cracking up, and trying to stifle it as well as they could. You never heard so much snickering in your life!

    "What'th that noith back there? Ith thomebody laughing?"

    After that, I just couldn't take Tolkien and elf books in general seriously— not that I would have in any case.

      [dance]


    Offline Bangsmith

    • Citizen of Greater Stoogedom
    • Chucklehead
    • ***
    • Posts: 163
    • Gender: Male
      • View Profile
    Re: Tolkien (split from Cover Songs)
    « Reply #4 on: May 05, 2006, 04:59:44 PM »
  • Publish
  • Well, Giff, it can't be any worse than the source material. Damn, how I despise that "elfish whimsy" crapola. J.R.R. Tolkien is the (singing) William Shatner of novelists.

    I was assigned to read and do a book report on the first "Lord of the Rings" novel when I was a freshman in high school. After reading one chapter, I practically begged my English teacher to give me another book to read, because I was just getting sick to my stomach with all the cutesy-poo swill on every page.

    He was surprised, but he agreed, and he gave my Herman Melville's "Typee" instead. I think we were both relieved. I didn't have to read another page of that Tolkien garbage, and he didn't have to read the book report in which I would have trashed it like nobody's business. Which it would have well deserved.

     [bitchin]

    From Dorothy Parker's review of the original "Winnie The Pooh," in the New Yorker, 1920's: "Tonstant weader fwows up."

    And there you have a reaction exactly like mine to Tolkien's "writing," from about 60 years before.

    [thumbsdown]


    I know this is veering off topic, but I couldn't agree more Pils. Tolkien is absolute garbage. Some lady I was banging five years or so back suggested I give those books a chance, and I got through about ten pages before I gave up in disgust.

    Pure fucking garbage.
    My experience with Tolkien was similar. I read The Hobbitt in elementary school, but I didn't have much of an opinion of it then. Later, I found out about the whole Lord Of The Rings trilogy, and was assured that it was more "grown up" than The Hobbitt. I also saw Tolkien's name associated with the Horror greats of the time,(He may fit in with the Horror/Fantasy genre in general, but Horror he is certainly not!) so I tried to read it, but gave up. Both H.P. Lovecraft and Stephen King praised him, but their reviews of him are misleading. Lord Dunsany was another Fantasy writer who gets lumped in as a Horror writer, but at least he is readable!!
    If at first you don't succeed, keep on sucking 'til you do "suck seed"!!

    Offline shemps#1

    • Pothead, Libertarian, Administrator, Resident Crank and Baron of Greymatter
    • Global Moderator
    • Chowderhead
    • ******
    • Posts: 3,771
    • Gender: Male
    • Hatchet Man
      • View Profile
    Re: Tolkien (split from Cover Songs)
    « Reply #5 on: May 05, 2006, 05:15:53 PM »
  • Publish
  • You know, guys, sometimes I just can't help thinking that you're a couple of horses' patoots.  Probably comes from living in those dens of iniquity on either coast.   ::)

    I would have thought that my being an asshole is common knowledge by now, DUH ROB!  :laugh:
    "Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day; teach a man to fish and he will eat for a lifetime; give a man religion and he will die praying for a fish." - Unknown

    Offline JazzBill

    • Knothead
    • *****
    • Posts: 1,315
    • Gender: Male
      • View Profile
    Re: Tolkien (split from Cover Songs)
    « Reply #6 on: May 05, 2006, 06:28:30 PM »
  • Publish
  • I know this is veering off topic, but I couldn't agree more Pils. Tolkien is absolute garbage. Some lady I was banging five years or so back suggested I give those books a chance, and I got through about ten pages before I gave up in disgust.

    Pure fucking garbage.
    The reason why none of you guys liked Tolkien is simple. You just weren't HIGH enough when you read it. I read it when I was in the service (and pretty much able to maintain a 24/7 buzz, on good quality smoke.) It all made sense then. A few years after I was out, I tried to read it again and couldn't do it.
    "When in Chicago call Stockyards 1234, Ask for Ruby".

    Pilsner Panther

    • Guest
    Re: Tolkien (split from Cover Songs)
    « Reply #7 on: May 05, 2006, 07:16:27 PM »
  • Publish
  • The reason why none of you guys liked Tolkien is simple. You just weren't HIGH enough when you read it. I read it when I was in the service (and pretty much able to maintain a 24/7 buzz, on good quality smoke.) It all made sense then. A few years after I was out, I tried to read it again and couldn't do it.

    That explains a lot— mainly, why those books were at the height of their popularity during the Hippie era. I used to toke up, but reading anything afterward was out of the question, because being high affected my concentration too much. I could either listen to or play music, but not read a book, because my mind would start wandering after a page or two. I finally had to quit when I got a job as an auditor, balancing the accounts for a large hotel every night. Fuzzy-mindedness just wouldn't have cut it, doing that work accurately. I'm not in that field any more, but I never got back into the habit of smoking weed.

    It's the same syndrome as some of the rock music from that period; I suppose you had to be high to listen to a lot of that amateurish dreck. What else could possibly account for the popularity of all those "off-key kids?"

    Why am I sounding so much like shemps#1 these days? For whatever reason, my cur is really mudgeoned lately.


    Offline Dunrobin

    • (Rob)
    • Administrator
    • Chowderhead
    • ******
    • Posts: 3,878
    • Gender: Male
    • Webmaster
      • View Profile
    Re: Tolkien (split from Cover Songs)
    « Reply #8 on: May 07, 2006, 11:02:32 AM »
  • Publish
  • Quote from: Pilsner
    Well, Rob, you picked us as moderators.

    That's very true, and you're good moderators.  That doesn't mean that you can't be horses' patoots, though!   ;D

    Maybe part of the reason why I enjoy authors like Tolkien and C.S. Lewis so much is because I can relate to them more.  I was a sickly kid at times, and I did a lot of reading from a fairly early age.  I developed a taste for Norse and Celtic mythologies and the stories of King Arthur, so naturally I recognized those elements in Tolkien and Lewis, who both grew up with similar interests.

    The Hobbit, Tolkien's first published book about Middle-Earth, was indeed written with children in mind, but it is not a "child's" book.  Tolkien did not talk down to children; instead, he treated them like young adults (a far cry from modern times, where our self-proclaimed rulers treat adults like little children.)  Hobbits are not cute and cuddly Ewoks; they are more like child sized adults who prove to be amazingly tough, courageous and resilient in the most dangerous circumstances.  Many people get killed in the book, and war, danger and death are not treated lightly.  As I said, this is not a "kiddies" book.

    Tolkien's famous masterpiece, The Lord of the Rings, picks up the story a few decades after the events in The Hobbit, and the storyline is much broader and even more adult-oriented, although kids can enjoy it, too.  It is an epic tale on a classic scale, and shouldn't be dismissed as being on the level of Winnie the Pooh.  Doing so displays blatant ignorance about the subject.  Would you compare Homer's Odyssey or Beowolf to Mother Goose?

    Tolkien's writings are incredibly detailed. He created an entire world, with an amazingly complete history spanning tens of thousands of years and multiple races of beings.  He invented at least five entire languages, along with the appropriate alphabets, and different calendar systems for each race.  The level of detail, and the completely logiical consistency of it all, are downright mind boggling.  Prof. Tolkien was a hell of a scholar, and I would give anything to have been able to study under him.

    I read The Lord of the Rings when I was in Junior High, so it must have been in 1967 or 1968.  (I didn't read The Hobbit until a year or two later.)  I know some of you will be skeptical, but I was a clean-cut kid (complete with a crewcut hairstyle, courtesy of my Dad) and did not smoke pot in those days.  I don't think I knew of anyone who did; pot smokers were all out there in weird places, like San Francisco.  It wasn't even a subject in the city I lived in.


    The rest of this is somewhat off-topic, but I want to remark on something Pils said:

    Quote from: Pilsner
    That explains a lot— mainly, why those books were at the height of their popularity during the Hippie era. I used to toke up, but reading anything afterward was out of the question, because being high affected my concentration too much. I could either listen to or play music, but not read a book, because my mind would start wandering after a page or two. I finally had to quit when I got a job as an auditor, balancing the accounts for a large hotel every night. Fuzzy-mindedness just wouldn't have cut it, doing that work accurately. I'm not in that field any more, but I never got back into the habit of smoking weed.

    It's funny how things can effect people differently, which demonstrates once again why "one size fits all" laws and regulations do not work.  I have a completely opposite reaction to smoking pot; I become more focused on whatever I'm doing.  In fact, the only problem with it is that I'm harder to distract, so you have to work at it to get my attention away from what I'm doing.  I've always been able to get completely engrossed in a book, visualizing the world in the book, so reading while I'm high just intensifies that ability.

    I've often done my best programming when I'm "stoned", but I never am at work (anymore.)  I still manage to crank out an awful lot of code and keep miles ahead of my co-workers, though.   ;)

    As "Towelie" pointed out on an episode of South Park recently:  You shouldn't get high to get good ideas.  You should get good ideas, and then reward yourself by getting high!
    [pot]

    Offline Dunrobin

    • (Rob)
    • Administrator
    • Chowderhead
    • ******
    • Posts: 3,878
    • Gender: Male
    • Webmaster
      • View Profile
    Re: Tolkien (split from Cover Songs)
    « Reply #9 on: May 07, 2006, 11:13:10 AM »
  • Publish
  • My experience with Tolkien was similar. I read The Hobbitt in elementary school, but I didn't have much of an opinion of it then. Later, I found out about the whole Lord Of The Rings trilogy, and was assured that it was more "grown up" than The Hobbitt. I also saw Tolkien's name associated with the Horror greats of the time,(He may fit in with the Horror/Fantasy genre in general, but Horror he is certainly not!) so I tried to read it, but gave up. Both H.P. Lovecraft and Stephen King praised him, but their reviews of him are misleading. Lord Dunsany was another Fantasy writer who gets lumped in as a Horror writer, but at least he is readable!!

    If good old H.P. Lovecraft ever praised Tolkien, he was even scarier than I thought!  Lovecraft died in 1937, and The Hobbit was published six months after his death.   The Lord of the Rings wasn't published until after World War II.

    I found Lord Dunsany boring and unreadable, but I was immediately enthralled by the scope of Tolkien's work.

    Pilsner Panther

    • Guest
    Re: Tolkien (split from Cover Songs)
    « Reply #10 on: May 07, 2006, 09:02:07 PM »
  • Publish
  • That's very true, and you're good moderators.  That doesn't mean that you can't be horses' patoots, though!   ;D

    It's a thankless job, but somebody has to do it!

    It's strange, but I don't remember being exposed to very much children's literature at all. My mother's never been much of a reader except for newspapers and magazines (and her stock dividend statements), and my father liked war stories and other "two-fisted action"-type books. As a result, I usually just ended up reading whatever was around the house, including the New York State Penal Code, since my father was in law enforcement and he had a copy.

    So, at an age when the other kids were reading Babar and Dr. Seuss, there I was sitting on the floor browsing through the Penal Code. Which may seem odd, but it did wonders for my vocabulary: I was tested in the fourth grade and found to have a twelfth-grade reading level! The school thought that this must have been a fluke, so they gave me the test again, got the same result, and then they skipped me ahead two grades. Which turned out to be a mixed blessing, since it made me the smallest kid in the class and I had to fight off all the bullies. There were a hundred vocabulary questions on that test and I only got one wrong, and I still remember which one: I thought "comely" was a synonym for "homely," but of course it's not, it's an antonym.

    Even then, I had adult tastes in literature. My favorite novel when I was in my early teens was "In God We Trust, All Others Pay Cash" by Jean Shepherd, his humorous account of growing up in Indiana during the Depression. One chapter was later adapted into the movie "A Christmas Story." I also liked James Thurber's short stories a lot (still do).

    It's fascinating how your upbringing can stay with you in unexpected ways: I've always been a literary type, but my talents lean almost completely toward journalism and non-fiction writing in general. I've written for magazines and newspapers, been an ad copywriter for a trade-only fabric company, and a Public Affairs Officer for the Army, but it would never even occur to me to try to write a sword-and-sorcery story— there's no connection there, just nothing all that I'd relate to, or ever could.

    So, if someone has the ability to write a great one, fine... but it's kind of like a chef who can make the world's finest horsemeat dish: I can admire his skill, but I'm still not going to eat it!

     [shrug]

    Which reminds me of another Oscar Levant remark. He'd written a successful book about his experiences as a classical pianist, so his publisher made a proposal for his next project. "Would you consider writing a biography of Victor Herbert?"

    Levant replied, "Write one? I wouldn't even read one!"

    [pound]

    Offline Giff me dat fill-em!

    • Oh, Vici Kid!
    • Moderator
    • Muttonhead
    • ******
    • Posts: 1,986
    • Gender: Male
    • Vici Kid
      • View Profile
    Re: Tolkien (split from Cover Songs)
    « Reply #11 on: May 08, 2006, 12:01:37 AM »
  • Publish
  • Quote
    So, if someone has the ability to write a great one, fine... but it's kind of like a chef who can make the world's finest horsemeat dish: I can admire his skill, but I'm still not going to eat it!

    THIS is the creedo of any chef/cook/slopmakerwhocaresaboutthefood ... we can create a FABULOUSLY delicious dish, but if the main ingredient is CALF FRIES or DOLPHIN OVARIES ... well ...
    The tacks won't come out! Well, they went in ... maybe they're income tacks.

    Offline Bangsmith

    • Citizen of Greater Stoogedom
    • Chucklehead
    • ***
    • Posts: 163
    • Gender: Male
      • View Profile
    Re: Tolkien (split from Cover Songs)
    « Reply #12 on: May 08, 2006, 08:11:19 AM »
  • Publish
  • If good old H.P. Lovecraft ever praised Tolkien, he was even scarier than I thought!  Lovecraft died in 1937, and The Hobbit was published six months after his death.   The Lord of the Rings wasn't published until after World War II.

    I found Lord Dunsany boring and unreadable, but I was immediately enthralled by the scope of Tolkien's work.

    You're right. It was Dunsany whom Lovecraft was praising. I got the names crossed up. At least we both like Lovecraft!
    Yog Sothoth!!
    If at first you don't succeed, keep on sucking 'til you do "suck seed"!!

    Offline Dunrobin

    • (Rob)
    • Administrator
    • Chowderhead
    • ******
    • Posts: 3,878
    • Gender: Male
    • Webmaster
      • View Profile
    Re: Tolkien (split from Cover Songs)
    « Reply #13 on: May 08, 2006, 07:54:21 PM »
  • Publish
  • Quote from: The Necronomicon
    Nor is it to be thought that man is either the oldest or the last of earth's masters. . . . The Old Ones were, the Old Ones are, and the Old Ones shall be. Not in the spaces we know, but between them, They walk serene and primal, undimensioned and to us unseen. Yog-Sothoth knows the gate. Yog-Sothoth is the gate. Yog-Sothoth is the key and guardian of the gate. Past, present, future, all are one in Yog-Sothoth. He knows where the Old Ones broke through of old, and where They shall break through again. . . . They walk unseen and foul in lonely places... The wind gibbers with Their voices, and the earth mutters with Their consciousness. They bend the forest and crush the city, yet may not forest or city behold the hand that smites. Kadath in the cold waste hasth known Them, and what man knows Kadath? . . . As a foulness shall ye know Them. Their hand is at your throats, yet ye see Them not; and Their habitation is even one with your guarded threshold. Yog-Sothoth is the key to the gate, whereby the spheres meet. Man rules now where They ruled once; They shall soon rule where Man rules now. After summer is winter, and after winter summer. They wait patient and potent, for here shall They reign again.

    That is not dead which can eternal lie,
    And with strange aeons, even death may die.

    Offline Giff me dat fill-em!

    • Oh, Vici Kid!
    • Moderator
    • Muttonhead
    • ******
    • Posts: 1,986
    • Gender: Male
    • Vici Kid
      • View Profile
    Re: Tolkien (split from Cover Songs)
    « Reply #14 on: May 09, 2006, 12:19:52 AM »
  • Publish
  • As a help for Pilsner (and all his kind) ...
    I have supplied a link for "Bilbo Baggins" that may aswage your dour view of Tolkien's works. (wink)

    Leonard Nimoy - Bilbo Baggins Live
    The tacks won't come out! Well, they went in ... maybe they're income tacks.

    Offline Dunrobin

    • (Rob)
    • Administrator
    • Chowderhead
    • ******
    • Posts: 3,878
    • Gender: Male
    • Webmaster
      • View Profile
    Re: Tolkien (split from Cover Songs)
    « Reply #15 on: May 09, 2006, 07:05:45 AM »
  • Publish
  • Now that is just being cruel - and unfair to poor Prof. Tolkien!   :D

    Offline JazzBill

    • Knothead
    • *****
    • Posts: 1,315
    • Gender: Male
      • View Profile
    Re: Tolkien (split from Cover Songs)
    « Reply #16 on: May 09, 2006, 04:16:23 PM »
  • Publish
  • As a help for Pilsner (and all his kind) ...
    I have supplied a link for "Bilbo Baggins" that may aswage your dour view of Tolkien's works. (wink)

    Leonard Nimoy - Bilbo Baggins Live

    Well, all the good memories I had of the 60s just went down the toilet.( along with lunch )
    "When in Chicago call Stockyards 1234, Ask for Ruby".

    Offline Giff me dat fill-em!

    • Oh, Vici Kid!
    • Moderator
    • Muttonhead
    • ******
    • Posts: 1,986
    • Gender: Male
    • Vici Kid
      • View Profile
    Re: Tolkien (split from Cover Songs)
    « Reply #17 on: May 12, 2006, 08:18:19 AM »
  • Publish
  • Perhaps there is a tiny bit of hope (maybe) for Nimoy's trash video ...
    Bilbo Baggins - Stop Motion Video
    Billibub Baddings
    The tacks won't come out! Well, they went in ... maybe they're income tacks.

     


    Facebook Comments